I try not to. I put the burden of defining it on the filmmakers. It means lots of different things to different people. The filmmakers can decide for themselves. If they think their films are underground, then they can submit them. When we are programming, we look for stuff outside the norm. . There aren't too many festivals dedicated entirely to this type of work. There are places where they show old cult films. There are not that many venues for new cult work. To quote what Judge Reinquist said about pornography, "I know it when I see it." Some underground films and filmmakers cross over into the mainstream then they come back.

In her case, I don't think she had a close personal interest n doing a remake of "The Little Rascals." Filmmaking is both an art form and a business. At CUFF we try to focus more on the art or self-expression side. But then there are people like Doris Wishman. Sure, you can categorize someone like Doris Wishman on the business side. You can say she is an exploitation director who is just trying to sell tickets. But her method of doing her works was very personal and idiosyncratic. Her works are as personal as some of the directors from the "art" or expressive" end of underground film. If there is an e definition of underground film, it's that it comes from a pure expression of a single person behind of a camera. So Spheeris might go to Hollywood to do "The Little Rascals' or "The Beverly Hillbillies" or "Wayne's World." which I liked, She's a talented filmmaker, and she does some mainstream features to take care of herself financially. Then, she does the smaller films like "The Decline of Western Civilization III" on subjects that really matter to her. Penelope put up her own money for that film, and she was closely involved with those kids. You can make a film like "Little Rascals" to finance something you really want to do. I am sometimes disappointed in the indy scene surrounding Sundance because as Jonathan Rosenbaum pointed out in his book, "Movie Wars," the definition of being an Indy success at Sundance is to be assimilates into the mainstream.

We have a screening committee. There are about a dozen people involved. Not all of them are filmmakers. But some of them are. We are always trying to get more filmmakers on the panel. It's gotten harder because the number of submissions has increased so radically: I mean this year we had 1200 from all over the world. It's very hard for everyone to see everything, and make the decision as a group. There's more of a filtering process now. People take tapes home and report on what they think is interesting or has value. Then, Amy Beste, our programmer, looks at what is being recommended. Then she decides what fits the spirit of the festival. So sees more films that are submitted than anyone else at this point. There are certain people who have a particular affinity for a certain type of film. Some prefer to watch documentaries, and some prefer features. shorts or experimental work

I like many different types of things, and music is important to me. Music related programming and music documentaries. I also like trashy exploitation films as much as serious avante garde films. I like both of those extremes. Anything that is out of the norm. I'm not as interested in the average run of the mill indies. that tend to be talky. Usually the best of those films make it to Sundance or other festivals, anyway. There are exceptions like "Straight Man," which is a character driven piece. It was interesting to me because it dealt with characters like the one I knew in Chicago.

Digital video has been a dominant force though I am not prepared to declare the death of the film, But since underground films tend to have lower budgets, digital video is an increasingly more affordable option, I am seeing a trend where they either use digital video or if they are using the money on film, they're shooting on 35 or they are blowing up to video to 35. Or I see 16 millimeter. I am not a format snob. I actually get annoyed when I hear people say that the film image is inherently better then the video image. I think that they are different, but I don't consider one or worst. Especially with the newer, high quality digital video. But imperfection can be interesting too, and it can be a smart aesthetic choice. Coming from a more a fine arts background, I have not assimilated all the conventional wisdom about what is good cinema. For me, all that matters is whether it is visually interesting. I don't care whether it's conventionally shot, and I think most of the people in the festival feel the same way. Which is not to say that I don't love a gorgeous fucking film.

I'm definitely partial to the opening night film, "The MC5: A True Testimonial." It's a really great film and it will get lots of attention. I think we have a really strong documentary section this year, For people that have never come before, I would say that the documentaries this year are more accessible thane some of the narrative films. We have some really weird narrative films this year. I have a sentimental soft spot for "Dildo Dreams, " the new Dorothy Wishman film, since she just passed away. I'm excited about showing the new Jon Moritsugu film, "Scumrock" on closing night. I loved the documentary on breath control, and "The History of the Human Beat Box" is a lot of fun. "In Our Garden" is one of the strangest films we have ever shown. It's hard to talk about it without making it sound like a bad film, but it's completely captivating. It's kind of like John Waters and Charles Bukowsky collaborating with Harmony Korine (laughing). That should either completely scare you away or you'll be really intrigued.

I'm very excited that Alfred Leslie will be with us. We are showing "Pull My Daisy," the landmark film he made with Allen Ginsberg and Jack Keroauc. It was co-directed by the photographer, Robert Frank. It's a very important film in the history of underground film. Jonas Mekas and several other important critics said that it was the first film they applied the word "underground" to. Experimental film was used to describe the films of Kenneth Anger and Maya Deren, but they were never called underground films. He also did `The Last Clean Shirt" which was considered one of the forerunners of structuralist cinema, one of the dominant forms of underground film in the `70s. He's known more for his paintings then his film work. He has a small body of film work, but his films are really significant. His new film, `The Cedar Bar' is interesting because it is based on a play that he wrote about his experiences with the abstract expressionists in New York and transcribing dialog he overheard at a bar between the artists almost verbatim. They were talking about film criticism and the critics in New York at the time. He then layered it with found footage and stuff he stole from television, and then he edited all together on his home editing system into a new work.

The new work comments on the story and illustrates it in different ways. This reflects two trends, which have always been present in the festival: the serious artier or experimental films and the trashier psychotronic type movies. We have always been interested in these two poles. Last year, Doris Wishman was the guest of honor, and she's more on the exploitation or psychotronic side. I thought it was important that this year we honor somebody who came from the other side or the serious, experimental side. It's been a few years since we brought in someone with that much of a fine art background. It's helping to reach a wider audience. The magazine "Art Papers" recently did a big interview with Leslie about his film work. That may reach a crowd that's different from the people who may have attended the festival in the past. They may be surprised that they may like some of the things they don't normally see. Of course, not every film will appeal to everybody. The Doris Wishman crowd may not like a documentary on the human beat box and hip-hop. There will be some overlap. The hip-hop crowd might come out for their film, and the camp fans will come out for the Wishman stuff. The rock crowd will come out for the MC5 film. All of the films will have followers in their own different underground communities or subcultures. Hopefully, our festivals will bring all of these communities together, and there will be some crossover. For instance, someone may come for the hip-hop documentary, and find out about "Horns and Halos," the political documentary about an unauthorized biography on George W, Bush.

That's a good question. I don't know if I can say that they are completely part of it. I think they are using underground film techniques. There are some dogma films I really like. I really hate a few as well. I was not a big fan of "The Idiots," but I did like "Celebration" as well as "julien donkey-boy." "Resin" was one of the American dogma films. They're definitely using some of the underground techniques in terms of shooting, but that raises the question: "What are underground techniques?' A film that was shot on 70 millimeter can still be an underground film

There's a big problem related to film marketing these days. Even the ones that have distribution have a hard time. If a film doesn't succeed right incredibly well by it's second week. It's dead. That's a big stumbling block. A good current example of this is one of my favorite large-scale independent films of last year, "Donnie Darko." No one went t to see it, and that film bombed at the box office. Its now doing very well on video and DVD, It developed a very dedicated cult audience. They keep bringing it back to the Film Center and it keeps doing better and consistent well. It's out on video and DVD but people still want to see it on the big screen. It did poorly initially because of the ad campaign. No one knew what the film was about. It also had the misfortune of being released around Sept 11 and an airplane engine falling out was an element in the story. It had nothing to do with terrorism, butt he studio pulled their punches and basically wrote it off as a loss. Miramax did the same thing with Jim Jarmusch's film "Dead Man" which is one of his best films. He insisted on final cut, and Miramax wanted to reedit it and he refused. They basically gave up on the film: it almost seemed like they wanted to punish him. Chicago was one of the few cities where the film did well. This was Brian, the programmer at the Music Box believed in it. Also Jonathan Rosenbaum and Ray Pride got behind it. It did better here than anywhere else, but the distributor actually hurt the film Todd Haynes is another filmmaker I respect. But none of his films have done well, and every one has had a different distributor. His "The Karen Carpenter Story" is the type of film that we normally show at CUFF. He also made "Safe," one of my favorite films of the last ten years. Even though he is working on bigger budgets, he is still coming from an underground perspective.

Sure. All art form cross paths or hybridize at one time or another. That happens in our music films. Underground films draw heavily from underground music. Chicago has a great music scene, which ranges from garage rock to free jazz. Then there are groups like tortoise, which take elements from lots of different music al genre and created a new type of music a post rock. In Chicago Theater has a big influence on film. You have people like Shawn Durr, He does some gay camp type humor but his sensibility is also based on the Annoyance Theater type stuff. They took things from B movies and they in turn influence film.

Well, I think that underground film is the movie equivalent to outsider art. People like Doris Wishman were self-taught, and so is the director of "Our Garden." As far as I can tell, the director shot `In Our Garden" in the trailer park where he lives using his neighbors. He has them utter the most ridiculous convoluted euphemisms you could imagine (laughing,) He definitely comes from an outsider mindset.

Yes, I am starting to see some of them on DVD. ."Surrender Dorothy' is out on DVD, and on the box it says "winner of a Chicago Film Festival award." `The Target Shots First" a documentary about corporate culture marketing alternative culture had a very successful run on the festival circuit; it was later picked up by Showtime. "Men Cry Bullets" is out on DVD and video. There is also a growing circuit of underground film festivals in other places. The New York Underground Film Festival started around the same time as ours. There are also underground film fests in Vancouver, Cleveland, and Boston. There's lots of crossover between the festival bookings. Some of the people with works in previous CUFFs started their own event, 50,000 Leagues Under the Film Industry. It's basically the Cleveland underground film festival. The Toronto Film Festival has even picked up three of the documentaries from this year's CUFF. Some have also shown up on the PBS shows, `Image Union" or `P.O.V."